Low grip tires... a better way to improve?

This may sound nutty, but I have never pushed my NSX to 9/10ths, let alone 10/10 because I just don't want to experience the car at its limit. The stickier the tire, the higher your speeds and the more dramatic the shift from grip to no grip. I have been toying with the idea of going with some really thin/low grip tires or running 50 psi hot in the tires and allowing the car to slip... and learning its behavior past grip. Essentially the behavior should be the same with grippy tires at much higher speeds. Has anyone done this?

If you guys think I have lost my marbles, watch this:

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I am going to have 4 oem wheels free to put whatever on for the track. I can also get 3 more spare tires. LOL...

I really think I could learn a lot of technique this way. No?

TURBO2GO said:

I really think I could learn a lot of technique this way. No?

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You will learn about how the NSX doesn't like to drift. :tongue:

You would be better off taking a shitty car with shitty tires. When I took Grandma's Camry to Mid Ohio it was fun because I had to do stuff like extreme trail braking and drop throttle oversteer to get the thing to rotate otherwise it would just plow like a pig. It was fun and yes, I learned a few things. I would never experiment with the NSX that way, because catching the oversteer is difficult and the consequences are greater.

However, I now use drop throttle oversteer to rotate the NSX on turn 8 at Putnam Park. I go in hot and as soon as I get to the part that goes uphill I come off the gas and let the car rotate and right back on the gas to stop the rotation. It also helps that the car is going uphill and the suspension compresses making it easy to ketch the slide. But I practiced this technique a lot at Mid Ohio in the Camry first.

Jim if I may admit something... I am afraid of the NSX. I have lost the rear end twice (not on the track but on the street when raining) and it has really spooked me. It is on my mind all the time on the track. I am hesitant to get into the throttle on corner exits. I am also afraid when I feel like I am going into turns a bit too hot. I don't know where the edge is and I stay well away from it. It really slows me down. I tried doing this wet figure 8 thing twice in an advanced car control class and all I learned is that when the tail snaps, its VERY hard to bring back. I never had this in another car. I would lay into my supra and bring the tail around and I never was nervous about it. It was fully controlled. I used to get into 4 wheel drifts and change radio stations while doing it. That just doesn't work with the NSX.

So what is a shitty car with shitty tires going to teach me about the NSX? I don't think a whole lot. My instructors in the figure 8 always say "wow so much grip" and it has a lot til it just snaps and then spins. I have to jab jab jab at the throttle to JUST get it to break a little and really modulate the throttle very mildly to be in control.

I have never done auto-X, but it does seem safe, and a place I can really push, so I am thinking maybe that is a good place to start. I did the Skip barber 3 day, but that was in an open wheel formula car and I am still nervous in the NSX. How do I get over this?

You need to find a place where you can practice drifing the nsx and really get a feel for how it brakes loose.

possibly a wet skidpad with nothing around to hit.

Sounds like you need to join NASA and get yourself some instruction.

What year OEM rims do you have? If they are the 16/17 I'd not get shitty tires, I'd get a set of Kumho's.

Jmho

Hi,

whenever it rains i go out at night to one roundabout (is this what it's called) with at least 4 lanes and drift... i manage to do as many turns as i want always drifting...

i found that the NSX has 2 drift angles... one very soft, much like if it was a 4 wheel slide, and one really hard, where the front is almost facing the apex.

One thing that i find peculiar is that the grip lost is not soft, it snaps, which scares, but then when it reachs one of the 2 angles, it stops at one of the angles just like magic.


the dry grip also scares me because i already pushed my NSX very hard through corners at crazy speeds, and i know in the back of my mind that the limit is still far away, so i start doing the math at which insane speed that limit is.

well... :tongue:

Nuno

9doors said:

Sounds like you need to join NASA and get yourself some instruction.

What year OEM rims do you have? If they are the 16/17 I'd not get shitty tires, I'd get a set of Kumho's.

Jmho

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I've had lots of instruction. I've been signed off to go solo if I wanted to. But no amount of track instruction is going to put me in a snap oversteer situation at high speeds. I also don't have shitty tires. But I did improve lap times when I switched from Azenis RT615's to star spec Z1's. Because they gave gradually. I don't think the Kumhos are very confidence inspiring from what I have read. They have high grip. That's all. In any case, tire quality is not my issue. I prefer to slide at lower speeds which was the point of this post. If I can get get less grip, the car's behavior may be more apparent at slower, less dangerous speeds.

A big parking lot is an auto-x situation which I think might be good for me.

Dave, I am very fortunate to have two local tracks both exactly 180 miles from me. Both I have driven the NSX 20+ times. Mid Ohio I have spun 0 times. There is too much to hit. Putnam Park I have spun numerous times. It's got plenty of grass. :biggrin:

Here is what I have learned. I try to drive smoothly, but when the car starts to go, multiple small corrections quickly are better than being smooth and being late with the correction as it's going to require a large correction and that's much, much harder to catch. The "snap oversteer" is actually a misnomer as it only happens once the car gets beyond say 30 degrees of yaw. And then see ya. :redface:

The key is to get small corrections in quickly and not let the car get to that 30 degrees. Multiple small corrections early are better than one large smooth one later.

Here are three videos same corner (turn 2 @ Putnam). This when I had added the front splitter but still hadn't added the wing on the rear and I was running a Dali 1" F&R. I have since added the Type R wing and changed out the rear sway bar to the street/track bar (one smaller).

Second two videos are actually the same day.

First two videos I was slow to get the corrections in and too "smooth". This requires a lot of lock to catch the slide and difficult to get the wheel back straight quickly. That and don't try to chase down a 911 GT2 on Hoosiers when you are running street tires. :wink:

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This one, immediate small correction. Still sliding, another small correction. Much easier to get the wheel back straight. this is the key ----> Small, immediate, quick corrections.

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This one is turn 7 - another quick, small correction.

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And this last video is Dan Clarke (Indy Light & Champ Car) driving my car. Watch how quick and small his corrections are. The squealing you hear are the rear tires (the mic is in the trunk). The one place he is late (top of turn 9 - 4:30 mark) you see how hard he has to work to catch it.

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TURBO2GO said:

If I can get get less grip, the car's behavior may be more apparent at slower, less dangerous speeds.

A big parking lot is an auto-x situation which I think might be good for me.

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No, it will just plow like a pig and feel sloppy as the tires will have soft sidewalls. And the speeds aren't going to be a lot less. Maybe 5-10 mph less on the same corner.

Auto-x is good and bad. Good because the really good guys have decent car control. Bad, because they tend to be way too aggressive with the wheel when they get on a road course. I have had students that are good auto-xers and they are assholes and elbows on the track yanking the wheel back and forth. Plus, auto-x is hours of standing around and 30-40 seconds of running. It's hard to learn something when you only get 40 sec of practice at a time.

A wet parking lot is also good and bad. Good to learn to try and drift. Bad because that leads to behavior like my first two spins above. Smooth slow corrections. I guess the key would be to be able to run around a wet parking lot and NOT drift the car. Keep the corrections quick and early and prevent the back from stepping out.

The best place would be a wet track - but you have to have a good one (like Putnam Park) where you can spin it off without hurting anything.

^ small and quick corrections, as in:
1 - start steering into the corner, say right
2 - rear goes
3 - quick steer to left to stop the rear
4 - quick steer back to the right to continue the corner

sawing him doing it, remind me of the video where senna is driving the NSX in Suzuka...lot's of small corrections.

Sometimes it isn't even a turn in the opposite direction, just a return to straight and then back to cornering. If you watch the video of Dan Clarke, sometimes he is turning say right and then corrects back to straight and then returns to cornering right. Like turn 2 (3:40) or turn 4 (3:50) or turn 8 (4:25). Yes, it's opposite wheel from the the skid but it's so small that it doesn't go past returning the wheel to straight and then right back to cornering.

Dave, do you have the noncompliant toe links and rear beam?

If so, before the NSX snaps you will feel the limits of the rear tires' traction. It is a subtle seat of the pants feedback that you will get especially if you are not an aggressive driver where your inputs/feedback have more time to react to one another. I have caught the rear several times especially at Sears Point turn 6, and Thunderhill turn 2. A more daring driving might make a real drifting of it but that's not my cup of tea.

As for tires, I agree with what Jim has posted. Once you are on R compound there is no going back; I have a set of Hoosiers but can't haul them to the track. So the last two track events I was on my 7 year old OEM Bridgestones. Sure I was quite slower but I was once again schooling myself on the limits of street tires hence the driving skills (as in the tires will bail you out less) was quite accentuated. And the marbles you collect on street tires are enough to make a new tire :biggrin:

Hrant said:

Dave, do you have the noncompliant toe links and rear beam?

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No. :tongue:

Dave, you know what you might want to try to do to get you over the fear of oversteer?

Set the car up at the track so it oversteers bad. Really bad, around every corner. This way you won't be surprised and will actually be expecting it and ready to get those small counter steer corrections in. You can practice this way for a bit and when you are comfortable then change it back to a more neutral setting. Then when it does happen your brain and muscle memory will automatically correct for it as soon as you feel it.

In the videos above on turn 2, after I spun it the first time that day I went right back out and was expecting the same oversteer in the same spot (turn 2) and I was ready. I will have to go through my old videos, but I think that every time I went through that turn the rest of the day the same thing happened.... turn-in oversteer, correction and keep going. I got a lot of practice correcting that day in the same spot over and over again because I knew exactly what to expect - no surprises and haven't spun in turn 2 again (yet).

I read in one of Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets book that when racing in the rain you want the car to always be sliding so that you are ready for it and constantly correcting vs grip, grip, grip and then (surprise) slide.

as Jim has said if you spin the car at an hpde you have not learned to feel the car getting all sorts of loose,to an experienced driver with good feel an inch feels like a mile.....I have been in plenty of student cars where I feel the yaw way before the student who blissfuly continues to give bad inputs...so continue to work on you.

At the track, I'm an advocate of practicing car control on inferior tires, but not crap tires. Like a batter taking practice swings with a weighted donut on his bat.

Last Friday at Sears Point/Infineon Raceway, I did the 1st two (expert/advanced) sessions on worn out Toyo R888s. I was slipping and sliding in every corner and I was eaten alive by most if not all the other cars on race tires. It was a very humbling experience, but it was also very educational.

After the 2nd session, I put my brand new Hoosier R6 stickers on and payback was a bitch! All those fast cars that were eating my lunch on my worn out Toyos were suddenly meat on the table in session 3. My lap times dropped from the high 1:50s to the low 1:50's - 4 seconds with just a tire change.

Session 4 was even more interesting because it was raining intermittently during the session. Everyone was tip toeing around the corners - except me. I felt like Senna out there in his McLaren. My lap times were only a second slower than in the dry session before.

The first thing I would strongly recommend is to make sure your car is set up and sorted correctly for your application/track.

1) Do ALL the the non-compliance upgrades and get all the rubber out of your suspension and steering bushings. Rubber, especially old rubber = vagueness = snap roll.

2) 3-way adjustable coilovers = KW V3

3) Big ass sway bars - subjective

4) Chassis stiffeners

5) Hoosier R6 tires

TURBO2GO said:

I have never done auto-X, but it does seem safe, and a place I can really push, so I am thinking maybe that is a good place to start.

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Infinitely yes.

Some road racers like to poo-poo autocross, but it really takes the learning curve for car control at the limit and compresses it significantly. It also forces you to anticipate and drive pro-actively in order to be fast, vs. reacting to what the car does (e.g. starting to counter steer slightly as you add throtte or lift so your hands are ahead of the up-coming slip angle in case the rear decides it wants to keep going).

There are almost no straight-aways, so all you are doing is just playing with the friction circle. "how much gas can I add while I've got this much steering angle?".

SCCA and NASA both run autocross events, they're relatively cheap, and there are rules on how they set courses up that minimize the availability of things to hit.

If you're set on learning car control in the NSX, that's the way I'd go.

Otherwise, pick up a cheap MKII MR2 from craigslist and use that. Mid-engined, and an even short wheelbase and livelier rear-end than the NSX. If you can drive out of a 30 degree drift-angle in one of those, anything else is cake (ask me how I know :biggrin

Dave - In those situations where the car spun, did you maintain throttle, add throttle, or let off the throttle and steer? In the video, it sounded like you were still giving it gas when you were about 30 degrees off trying to steer through it.

In those same situations, I've noticed that I can only give it throttle and steer out of it up to about 20 degrees. Closer to the edge of about 30 degrees, I must be off the gas until I "snap" back into place, or into a less extreme angle in which I can get back on the throttle. I also have not done any of the non-compliance upgrades, although its high on my list to do once I better understand those mods.

TURBO2GO said:

This may sound nutty, but I have never pushed my NSX to 9/10ths, let alone 10/10 because I just don't want to experience the car at its limit.

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I'm the same exact way as you - same opinion and same reasons.

Are we related or something??!?

HIJACKER said:

Dave - In those situations where the car spun, did you maintain throttle, add throttle, or let off the throttle and steer? In the video, it sounded like you were still giving it gas when you were about 30 degrees off trying to steer through it.

In those same situations, I've noticed that I can only give it throttle and steer out of it up to about 20 degrees. Closer to the edge of about 30 degrees, I must be off the gas until I "snap" back into place, or into a less extreme angle in which I can get back on the throttle. I also have not done any of the non-compliance upgrades, although its high on my list to do once I better understand those mods.

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I think you are talking about my videos. When the back end is sliding you NEVER want to "get off the gas". You can hold it steady. You can slightly increase it to put weight on the rear. You can slightly decrease it if the rear tires are actually spinning. But when you "get off the gas" the weight shifts forward, no weight on the rear and see ya - around you go like a top.

That is called "drop throttle oversteer". Go hot into a corner, drop the gas, weight shifts forward, rear comes around. You can actually play with this by getting off the gas, letting the car rotate and right back on the gas to transfer the weight back to the rear and stop the rotation. But you don't want to do this when the car is already sliding.

Dave work on you, come to kids day in July at the glen I will take you round,and you will find the ride at 8-9 10'ths is rather mundane and relaxed....it should be...fast but not scary.I rarely go "all out" only time I try is when playing with other like minded folks....plus I stay on ra1's, I have never in all my years gone to hoosiers slicks ect....:redface:

CL65 Captain said:

I think you are talking about my videos. When the back end is sliding you NEVER want to "get off the gas". You can hold it steady. You can slightly increase it to put weight on the rear. You can slightly decrease it if the rear tires are actually spinning. But when you "get off the gas" the weight shifts forward, no weight on the rear and see ya - around you go like a top.

That is called "drop throttle oversteer". Go hot into a corner, drop the gas, weight shifts forward, rear comes around. You can actually play with this by getting off the gas, letting the car rotate and right back on the gas to transfer the weight back to the rear and stop the rotation. But you don't want to do this when the car is already sliding.

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I understand that completely. However, that's the exact OPPOSITE of what happens for me based on my experience at the track with this vehicle. I will of course stay on the gas up until about a 20 degree angle if it starts to break loose. However, if I get to about 30 degrees, I left off the throttle a bit and it "snaps" back into place (the direction I'm counter-steering) and I gradually add more gas and drive out of it.

I've yet to completely spin this car around doing the above method. The one time I did spin around completely, I was attempting to add more throttle and drive out of it. That resulted in a spin.

unless you guys are pro drifters or experienced racers:wink: sliding around turns at your friendly hpde is the slow way around,grip not slip.....:smile:

docjohn said:

unless you guys are pro drifters or experienced racers:wink: sliding around turns at your friendly hpde is the slow way around,grip not slip.....:smile:

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Maybe I've been drinking the Rockst*r Energy Drink. :biggrin: