Meth Kit with CTSC

There have been some testimony that the CTSC kit can potentially heat soak under track conditions. I've also read on here that Comptech claims the CTSC will likely run "safer" under track conditions where the AITs will be so hot the factory ECU will retard the timing.

I'm all for cooling down the IATs and also understand than on a stock low boost setup it's probably not a concern. Unfortunately, people who run the stock CTSC aren't more inclined to measure IATs so I can't find any data on it. I have a hard time believing that under track conditions a low boost Autorotor can stay under 180 degs IATs but again, would love to see some data.

In terms of cooling the IAT, the meth kit seems like a logical option next to an aftercooler. Both seem to be effective and have their pros/cons.

Anyone out there successfully running a Meth kit with the stock, SMOG legal CTSC fueling (ACM, stock injectors, RRFPR, etc...) in either low boost or high boost setup? Perhaps someone has some ideas on the potential effects both good and bad with running the meth?

Would love to hear some opinions. Thanks

I would like the same info. My low-boost CTSC has plenty of power when ambient temps are low, but when it gets hot outside, or when I run the car hard and it heat soaks, there is a significant power loss. Was also thinking of a meth/water injection kit to keep the performance more consistent.

Where would you install the nozzles? Seems you would want it to be injected post-blower so it's hitting the hot compressed air. Not sure how you'd achieve this.

Regarding nozzle placement it appears right before the throttle body is acceptable.

Interesting, with a centrifugal pump (turbo or Vortech type supercharger), injecting meth upstream will also improve the pumps efficiency. I was planning on doing it upstream and downstream of my turbo (with restrictors of course on the upstream side of the turbo).

I don't know how that would work injecting it into a positive displacement pump though

Dave

I want to try out meth on my supercharger setup but I've had friends run into trouble with meth which worries me. One of my friends had a meth injection failure and the nozzles stop spraying. Unfortunately he was unaware of the issue and the engine failed because of extreme overheating and knocking and etc.

To alleviate those concerns, AEM's new setup has an actual flow rate monitor - not just a pressure sensor.

With this introduction, it's basically bulletproof. Low/no flow can trigger a safer fuel/ignition map.

Dave

Mac Attack said:

Interesting, with a centrifugal pump (turbo or Vortech type supercharger), injecting meth upstream will also improve the pumps efficiency. I was planning on doing it upstream and downstream of my turbo (with restrictors of course on the upstream side of the turbo).

I don't know how that would work injecting it into a positive displacement pump though

Dave

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I would assume it would also improve pump efficiency for a screw type due to better atomization if placed upstream? If one can properly atomize the mixture downstream it might be the best bang for your buck. It would be interesting to note the coefficiency of loss when air is compressed at various different temps. I might stick with upstream since i'm too chicken-sh*t to try otherwise

Spaz said:

I want to try out meth on my supercharger setup but I've had friends run into trouble with meth which worries me. One of my friends had a meth injection failure and the nozzles stop spraying. Unfortunately he was unaware of the issue and the engine failed because of extreme overheating and knocking and etc.

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To me, the beauty of using meth with the stock Comptech fueling is if you run out of meth or it simply stops working then it's just back to running as if you didn't have the meth on (essentially what CT sells off the shelf). The car wasn't tuned with Meth as a dependency to begin with so it's just a bonus I would think.

The problem i'm thinking about is if the Comptech fueling solution IS NOT or CANNOT adjust to denser/colder air than normal. Will that cause any problems? For example, even when it's 60 degs outside a supercharger can probably compress that air up to 100 degs (I don't really know the actual figures) so therefore CT in their tuning wisdom has likely taken this into account. What if that air is cooled further than 100 degs?

Again, i'm just thinking thru how best to prevent heat soak. Perhaps a meth kit that's triggered by IAT is the answer...

I could very well possibly be overthinking this...Wish Shad would chime in

Not with a roots type blower. If the mixture doesn't vaporize at 65C (meth) or 100C (water) before entering the compressor lobes, then I would think you could have problems.

I did a general search on the internet this morning and found out that another factor to consider for the roots superchargers is that pre-injection can accelerate the coating wear on the lobes. How much to actually make it a concern? I don't know

That's not mentioned in AIS's info:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Methanol-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

In fact, they recommend injecting right before the lobes to aid sealing.

I would try to do an extensive internet search to see who's been injecting pre-roots supercharger for any period of time on other vehicles and how their system has held up. The NSX group really isn't known as being technical innovators and I think you're going to have to blaze a new trail for us :wink:

Dave

Aren't most cars with meth tuned for the meth?

I am not sure how that works on a stock CTSC set up. You will be making more power when the meth is sprayed, so won't that mess with the A/F and there is really no way to adjust it.

If you could run meth without needed a retune and it would just cool, that would be a great option that I would consider myself.

If you're planning on running methanol for the primary purpose of cooling, another factor to consider is that water has better heat absorption properties than methanol does. The injection of methanol is primarily used for the effective increase in octane, and not as much for cooling. This being the case, you could simply inject water and save the guesswork on the effect of methanol contact on your components.

Mac Attack said:

Not with a roots type blower. If the mixture doesn't vaporize at 65C (meth) or 100C (water) before entering the compressor lobes, then I would think you could have problems.

I did a general search on the internet this morning and found out that another factor to consider for the roots superchargers is that pre-injection can accelerate the coating wear on the lobes. How much to actually make it a concern? I don't know

That's not mentioned in AIS's info:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Methanol-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

In fact, they recommend injecting right before the lobes to aid sealing.

I would try to do an extensive internet search to see who's been injecting pre-roots supercharger for any period of time on other vehicles and how their system has held up. The NSX group really isn't known as being technical innovators and I think you're going to have to blaze a new trail for us :wink:

Dave

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Thanks for the note and reminder Dave. Yes, agreed.. i'll definitely have to do more research. I'll give the folks at Magnuson a call since I also use their SC on my other vehicle. I'm not willing to throw-in the towel on this just yet! :wink:

I've read both these arguments 1) not to spray meth/water due to potential teflon coating damage OR 2) it will aid in sealing with the side effect of cooling the compressor itself. That's an excellent link btw.

Perhaps i'll have to go back to my first idea of having this be triggered by AITs... or just turn the system on under prolonged heavy driving conditions. I'll need an AIT sensor at the very least.

NetViper said:

Aren't most cars with meth tuned for the meth?

I am not sure how that works on a stock CTSC set up. You will be making more power when the meth is sprayed, so won't that mess with the A/F and there is really no way to adjust it.

If you could run meth without needed a retune and it would just cool, that would be a great option that I would consider myself.

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Meth/Water effectively boost octane and cools intake charged air. Evidently both mixed together promotes the best adhesion, cooling, and atomization qualities. I think of it like running 91 (or race fuel for that matter) in your Honda DX Civic which was designed to operate at 87. It wasn't tuned to take advantage of the higher detonation thresholds of 91 so the timing and fuel map will be the same as if you ran 87. In other words.. it won't hurt to run higher octane in most cases on a car that wasn't tuned for it.

CT tuned it so it can ship out of the box and address nearly all driving conditions safely. There are hundreds of sold units out there w/o any problems so they've done their job well. However, i'm convinced heat soak is still an issue and needs to be addressed for full time optimum performance under hard driving conditions which only a fraction of CTSC owners ever subject their cars to i'm sure. It's interesting to note that they had the option to use a 2.3L unit which would spin slower, run cooler AITs, at the expense of higher parasitic drag BUT something like could not get it to pass emissions and/or could not use their original fueling solution. I'd be interested to know if they couldn't get it to pass emissions due to the 1.7L CARB approved fueling provisions being inadequate or because they didn't want to spend money to recertify an AEM EMS with CARB. Shad seemed to think the 1.6Lysholm/1.7Autorotor seems to address most NSX owners needs. I agree definitely! I just don't know yet if i'm like "most" NSX owners yet.

CDX_NSX said:

If you're planning on running methanol for the primary purpose of cooling, another factor to consider is that water has better heat absorption properties than methanol does. The injection of methanol is primarily used for the effective increase in octane, and not as much for cooling. This being the case, you could simply inject water and save the guesswork on the effect of methanol contact on your components.

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I believe the problem with 100% water is the atomization qualities of H2O isn't quite as good as when mixed with meth. With just one jet spraying i'd be afraid to run into single cylinder detonation with 100% water. It's a really good suggestion though since to address heat soak all one needs to do is cool the charge temps. I think the best setup would be a direct water injection setup where it only sprays at the higher rpms but with 6 injectors the tuning complexity increases exponentially (I think SAAB did this in the past). Anyway, at that point I might as well go AEM and all the CARB certs CT did is thrown out the window

Check out this kit:

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Trunk-Mount-Systems/c37/index.html

BATMANs said:

Check out this kit:

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Trunk-Mount-Systems/c37/index.html

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I don't see any safety features incorporated into that kit. The only good things are the nice controller and the pump, honestly. They have an optional tank level float switch, but that's it. I also don't like their black tanks they tought as a benefit. You'll have to use their optional sight glass kit to be able to see the level, even if you open the cap to peer inside.

The AEM setup is pretty nice. About $750 though including their FAILSAFE setup!

Dave

My .02....

I have the AEM Meth Kit on my BBSC setup. So far it works great.
Got it here...best price $335 shipped...
http://www.myextremeparts.com/product.html?id=aem-water-methanol-injection-kit-1-gallon-kit-30-3000

Also, the AEM has a "boost safe" function built in. From AEM's site...

“Boost Safe” Readiness Safety System
AEM’s progressive controller has a unique system readiness failsafe called “Boost Safe” that monitors the entire injection system. If at any time the controller detects an error, the “Boost Safe” output will trigger a ground signal. The “Boost Safe” output will activate if there is a short, loss in continuity from a broken wire or bad connection, blown fuse, overheated pump, overheated pump driver, or a high or low voltage condition. The fluid tank comes fitted with a pre-installed low level switch and in the event the fluid level begins to get too low, the “Boost Safe” output will activate putting your engine into a safe mode before the system runs completely out of fluid. This failsafe function is an exclusive feature only available on the AEM Water/Methanol Injection System.

I recommend you look into their new FAILSAFE system. This incorporates an actual flowmeter so you KNOW how much meth is being injected instead of assuming. Without proper maintenance of the system, over time, actual flow delivered to the engine will drop off and your "tune" is no longer valid.

It's an extra $250.

Dave

Mac Attack said:

I recommend you look into their new FAILSAFE system. This incorporates an actual flowmeter so you KNOW how much meth is being injected instead of assuming. Without proper maintenance of the system, over time, actual flow delivered to the engine will drop off and your "tune" is no longer valid.

It's an extra $250.

Dave

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Concerns like that made me stay away from meth injection and stick to a larger blower and a proper tune on Costco gasoline. So far so good on both the Goat and NSX.....

BATMANs said:

Concerns like that made me stay away from meth injection and stick to a larger blower and a proper tune on Costco gasoline. So far so good on both the Goat and NSX.....

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Unfortunately, neither meth or an aftercooler is a slam dunk decision imo. The aftercooler can leak and the costs is huge from a $/hp perspective.

I just spoke to a tech at Magnuson (Eaton). They do not recommend spraying before the SC for a daily driver like my pickup. He educated me in that the screws have a special graphite based powdercoat in which the rapid cooling effects of the meth/water can crack the powdercoat over time. He could only speak to Eaton chargers and does not know about Autorotor, Lysholms, and others. He did say plenty of race cars do it all the time and it's effective. The coating is designed to last 100-120k miles before a rebuild is even considered. Some are holding boost much past that. Therefore, it makes me think... my NSX sees maybe 3000-5000/year if i'm lucky and maybe only 300-500+ miles track miles a year where the meth is needed. I'm thinking, even with spray, the blower will still outlast me and my car! Again, this is assuming Lysholm/Autorotor has the same longevity requirements as the Eatons.

Anyone out there seen a kit that can be triggered by AIT temp? I think i'll have to build my own which shouldn't be too difficult I reckon.

RYU said:

Unfortunately, neither meth or an aftercooler is a slam dunk decision imo. The aftercooler can leak and the costs is huge from a $/hp perspective.

I just spoke to a tech at Magnuson (Eaton). They do not recommend spraying before the SC for a daily driver like my pickup. He educated me in that the screws have a special graphite based powdercoat in which the rapid cooling effects of the meth/water can crack the powdercoat over time. He could only speak to Eaton chargers and does not know about Autorotor, Lysholms, and others. He did say plenty of race cars do it all the time and it's effective.........

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I have 90k~ miles on my GTO's Magnacharger. ZERO issues.

The methanol can also be corrosive to the powder coating much like a chemical paint stripper.

I was under the impression that the roots Eaton/Magnacharger compresses the air externally (between the blower and the engine) and the twin screw compresses it in the blower.

So if the roots is not compressing the air at the screws then there shouldn't be any heat in there where the meth injection will pose as a thermal shock threat to the powder coating finish.....

I would think you'd want the boost-referenced design like AEM's and have it "armed" all the time (are you going to be boosting all the time :biggrin:
http://www.aemelectronics.com/water-methanol-injection-kits-23/water-methanol-systems-for-gasoline-engines-51/

I'd get a bigger tank (at least 3 gallons) and their Failsafe system for peace of mind.

You'll probably dyno this after your CTSC install anyways to get a warm fuzzy feeling on your new power and AFR's, so why not install this meth kit and tune it as well at the same time?

I'm not quite sure I buy the story about the heat-soaked engine causing such a loss of power. Sure, I can tell a difference in power after extended periods at redline or in extreme heat. But I think the stock ECU is overly compensating for higher than normal IAT's by pulling so much timing or whatever out of the ignition. I don't see how else the engine drastically slows down after a few track laps. Some discontinuity in the OEM tuning is driving the OEM ECU into a failsafe mode suddenly when IAT's reach X? I wonder exactly what that temperature is?

Do turbos with FIC have this problem with the OEM setup monitoring IAT's as well? Or do the folks with turbo FICs really load the engine for extended periods of time?

Dave

Dave

There is more than a possibility for positive displacement superchargers to heat soak on track (not just from heat generated from the engine heating the supercharger, but primarily from compressing of the air itself which superheats the IATs and with no way of cooling it, the temps keep climbing).

This is the major setback of a + displacement design especially for continuous track or spirited street use, the difficulty of cooling the intake charge. It is easily concievable to have lap times drop a couple seconds or so due to a drop in power from retarded timing and added fuel from a good tune/calibration of the ecu to save the motor. This power loss is magnified by the outside temp and duration under load. On a hot day many supercharged cars (not just the NSX but Mustangs, LSX xars, you name it) lose a lot of power and its noticable by the seat of the pants. Turbo systems can have this issue too but an upgrade of the intercooling components which is often easier to package and increase in size can be a sustained fix.

Positive displacement superchargers are not the FI road racing method of choice for many reasons .

Aftercoolers do help but often they don't do much more than delay the inevidable -which can be only a lap or so more before big losses in power in some systems before the cooling system is maxed and reaches equilibrium.

It wouldn't suprise me if some SC NSXs see IATs in the 220-300* range or even higher in a few laps on track or even a hot day on the street having fun.

***the SC NSX community needs to invest in gauges to measure IATs collectively so we can talk about objective numbers rather than varying subjective thoughts, feelings, or paradigms on what products or packages are delivering real benefits.

IMO it kinda sucks to invest in getting 100-150ish more HP than stock and realistically only seeing a 50hp gain over stock for most of a 20 minute session or on a hot day blasting up an onramp onto the freeway. With some leg work and people monitoring IATs, we will have a better idea on what's going on. Without #s, speculation is a waste of time.


0.02

just as an aside... I called Kenne Bell and they also do not recommend meth before the blower. What is interesting though is they did recommend the use of Nitrous instead - yes, before the blower to cool down IATs... that's a whole different animal :frown:

from the many testimonials online (outside of nsxprime) there are thousands of miles logged on high meth setups where the nozzle was before the blower. Everything from the peeling coating fears to washing away bearing grease in the rotors are mentioned but I have not read one where meth was determined to be the problem. I wouldn't be surprised if the manufacturers are somewhat taking the safe path. Anyway, more research is needed and of course, actual data logging.

Dave - The AEM unit looks like a nice out-of-box solution. I'll have to look into that. My main concern is cooling AITs and still making use of the "stock" Comptech fueling provisions which are CA CARB legal. If the option to go with a full AEM EMS or even just a FIC for that matter was available (while still be CARB) i'd just run a bigger blower and underdrive it. I think that's likely the best solution me thinks.. . While we're at it... might as well just do Twin Turbos! Unfortunately, in the republic of California I don't want to know 12 friends who knows 12 friends to get SMOG'ed. Though, BATMANs did pass the sniffer with the special juice (high octane alcohol additive me thinks).

Billy - I wholeheartedly agree. The biggest problem I have in finding a solution is the lack of actual AIT information. Even just 3 people would be a decent sample size. Please help us in campaigning the need for data logging!

You have to datalog or at least measure to make any sort of progress. I do this on everything I test and develop and at FXMD I did this for years with various Turbo cooling systems, oil cooling and pressure systems, coolant systems, suspension/setups, etc...

Just like PROBE-type tire pyrometers to dial in your setup (camber, toe, tire pressures) you need to measure your IATs for engine performance and figuring out what changes work.


0.02

I agree heat soak is real.

BUT to replicate a previous post that CTSC NSX's were being passed on track straightaways like they are sitting still by stock NSX's leads me to believe the OEM ECU reached a magic IAT reading and drastically cut timing and added fuel. I said I was curious what those IATs were to cause such a change.

I don't think the AEM EMS or FIC is necessary for the CTSC. I think it will work just fine for your application RYU. BUT, I would also want to install the meth kit at the same time as boost-dependent so that you don't have to worry about flipping switches... unless you're like me and like a lot of dashboard switches! Just to keep IAT's under control sounds like you only need to inject meth at a rate of about 10% of your fuel consumption... Therefore a 3 gallon tank would last you a long time daily driving. You'd just have to carry some reserve at the track.

My BW EFR turbo will have a speed sensor and IAT sensor post turbo. It will have a small meth injection pre-turbo and a larger split post-turbo. I'm not too worried about the methanol or alcohol prematurely wearing the bearings or anything.

Dave

Mac Attack said:

I agree heat soak is real.

BUT to replicate a previous post that CTSC NSX's were being passed on track straightaways like they are sitting still by stock NSX's leads me to believe the OEM ECU reached a magic IAT reading and drastically cut timing and added fuel. I said I was curious what those IATs were to cause such a change.

I don't think the AEM EMS or FIC is necessary for the CTSC. I think it will work just fine for your application RYU. BUT, I would also want to install the meth kit at the same time as boost-dependent so that you don't have to worry about flipping switches... unless you're like me and like a lot of dashboard switches! Just to keep IAT's under control sounds like you only need to inject meth at a rate of about 10% of your fuel consumption... Therefore a 3 gallon tank would last you a long time daily driving. You'd just have to carry some reserve at the track.

My BW EFR turbo will have a speed sensor and IAT sensor post turbo. It will have a small meth injection pre-turbo and a larger split post-turbo. I'm not too worried about the methanol or alcohol prematurely wearing the bearings or anything.

Dave

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I think your suspicion is quite good. I believe it was Chris from SOS who confirmed that the factory IAT sensor was ultra sensitive (overboosted? pardon the pun) when compared to a quality aftermarket AIT sensor. It rised at a much faster rate though i'm not sure if that's due to sensor positioning or the sensor itself. I'll try to find that link. If that's the case then the factory ECU would go into "safe mode" much sooner than it probably needs to. In my case I prefer to be better safe than sorry. I'd like to still cool the AIT as opposed to addressing any potential sensor issue. I will be running an aftermarket sensor...

I'm leaning towards running the meth/water injection that's boost dependent like you said, but only turn it on when needed. I think the whole issue with damaging the rotor coatings is overblown especially at the small amounts someone like me would be using. It should vaporize on contact. I just need to figure out the mixture percentages. I also like the fact that meth/water has the side effect of steam cleaning the valves, cylinder, and pistons

I wish I had more leeway for i'd go Twin Turbo like you and a full on EMS.

I am currently setting a nsx up with methanol injection and CTSC autorotor as we speak. I am running this car on the brand new series 2 AEM EMS that I have converted to run on the nsx. I have sprayed methanol through blowers for years and not have had any ill effects. In order to take full advantage of methanol injection you do have to have the ability to tune for it. I would be hesitant to put methanol injection on a standard CTSC using the stock computer. The way the stock computer pulls timing is with high IAT. the methanol has such a good cooling effect that your iats are some times less than ambient temperature. I would be afraid of detonating the engine with the stock computer because there would be no timing retard done due to low IATS. In my opinion methanol injection for the CTSC nsx in the best way of cooling the air charge. The inter coolers that are on the market do work but I feel that methanol injection works better